Author Topic: New garage electrical panel install question  (Read 1417 times)

August 30, 2016, 02:44 PM #0

TheDarkness Offline

  • Regular Member
  • Posts: 218
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
    Location: Winnipeg
  • Real Name: Tyler
  • Vehicle: 1991 Escort 'GTR', 1992 Familia GTR, 2013 Focus ST
  • Reputation Power: 8
  • TheDarkness has no influence.
Hey guys, I just had a question or two about installing a new electrical panel in my garage.  Hopefully there's a few of you that have experience in this.  I'm wanting to install a new 200amp panel in the garage to replace the 60amp subpanel that's in there now.  Instead of a sub panel though, I would want the garage to have its own separate feed, instead of tying in from the house main panel.  I want hydro to come out and take a look/give a cost estimate for what it would cost to put the new panel in.  Do I need to take out permits or anything just to have an estimate done?  Or what is the correct/fastest process to get that going?

Thanks!

    Top Tier Imports

    New garage electrical panel install question
    « on: August 30, 2016, 02:44 PM »

    August 30, 2016, 02:59 PM #1

    dano Offline

    • Regular Member
    • Posts: 2,416
    • Join Date: Aug 2012
      Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
    • Real Name: Daniel G
    • Vehicle: 2013 Nissan Leaf SL, 2002 Subaru Forester XT
    • Reputation Power: 94
    • dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!
    @Vince may be able to help a bit more.

    I think I heard for a garage it might only cost like $1000 to run a 100 amp line to it, so it might be only a bit more expensive for 200 amp.

    I'm sure a permit would be needed, but likely most contractors / electricians could do that on your behalf.
    Current Forester count: 1
    Owner, Next Level Escapes

      August 30, 2016, 04:03 PM #2

      Vince Offline

      • Regular Member
      • Posts: 5,366
      • Join Date: Aug 2012
        Location: Westwood
      • Vehicle: 2012 Si
      • Reputation Power: 174
      • Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!
      I replied to your pm before reading this post.

      80% of what I said applies still.

      Hydro determines the location of your service, not too sure how you go about asking for a new service point location cause it's dumb to move your panel if you don't have to.

      You would have to JB ALL your circuits and run everything to the new location, all while accounting for voltage drop.

      It's easier to upgrade your main service to a 200A panel and run a 60A feed to your garage. I strongly recommend you doing this.

      I know how to do new services as I've done them a bunch and I'm pretty good at them, but I can't pull a permit, which means the city would be pissed, wouldn't inspect it and hydro wouldn't touch it.

      tl ; dr : don't move your service point location, just upgrade to 200A and run a feed to your garage.
      (∩ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)⊃━☆ ─=≡Σ((( つ◕ل͜◕)つ

      [May 23 00:37:52] Sloppyclock:But Moooooom, I was being a street terrorist

        August 30, 2016, 06:00 PM #3

        dano Offline

        • Regular Member
        • Posts: 2,416
        • Join Date: Aug 2012
          Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba
        • Real Name: Daniel G
        • Vehicle: 2013 Nissan Leaf SL, 2002 Subaru Forester XT
        • Reputation Power: 94
        • dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!dano has great potential!
        Originally posted by Vince
        tl ; dr : don't move your service point location, just upgrade to 200A and run a feed to your garage.
        I think the purpose of this is to put it at the top of your post, lol
        Current Forester count: 1
        Owner, Next Level Escapes

          August 31, 2016, 11:02 AM #4

          TheDarkness Offline

          • Regular Member
          • Posts: 218
          • Join Date: Sep 2012
            Location: Winnipeg
          • Real Name: Tyler
          • Vehicle: 1991 Escort 'GTR', 1992 Familia GTR, 2013 Focus ST
          • Reputation Power: 8
          • TheDarkness has no influence.
          I want a bigger panel in the garage.  60amp is going to be too small.  If I upgrade the house panel to 200amp, I still have to upgrade the garage one.  Then I'm paying twice over for new panels, lines etc. 

            August 31, 2016, 12:35 PM #5

            Vince Offline

            • Regular Member
            • Posts: 5,366
            • Join Date: Aug 2012
              Location: Westwood
            • Vehicle: 2012 Si
            • Reputation Power: 174
            • Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!
            Originally posted by TheDarkness
            I want a bigger panel in the garage.  60amp is going to be too small.  If I upgrade the house panel to 200amp, I still have to upgrade the garage one.  Then I'm paying twice over for new panels, lines etc. 
            What are you planning on putting in your garage that a 60A sub will be too small?

            It will be incredibly cheaper to upgrade your existing panel, and run a single piece of 6/3 teck out to your garage then to move your service, and JB all of your circuits to relocate them to the garage, including increase all the wire sizes to main a 3% and under voltage drop.

            For example, your stove is usually (if electric) fed with 8/3 NMD90. You would have to run 6/3 teck (assuming burried, if not, AC90 would work) from the new panel location to the house. That cable alone could have fed your sub panel (#6 good for 65A with a CTTR of 60° as per 4-004/T2 in the CEC) , but since your main is in the garage you need that cable, then ones for your dryer (another 40A or so cable) as well as everything else.

            Tell me what you want to put in your garage and why you think 60A is too small.
            (∩ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)⊃━☆ ─=≡Σ((( つ◕ل͜◕)つ

            [May 23 00:37:52] Sloppyclock:But Moooooom, I was being a street terrorist

              August 31, 2016, 12:42 PM #6

              TheDarkness Offline

              • Regular Member
              • Posts: 218
              • Join Date: Sep 2012
                Location: Winnipeg
              • Real Name: Tyler
              • Vehicle: 1991 Escort 'GTR', 1992 Familia GTR, 2013 Focus ST
              • Reputation Power: 8
              • TheDarkness has no influence.
              The garage has a 6/3 line feeding a 60amp sub panel now.  I wouldn't be moving the main house service.  The house panel stays where it is.  You run a totally separate feed to the garage only.  It wouldn't tie over to the house.  60amp won't be enough.  A welder on a 50amp breaker, a heater on a 30 amp breaker, compressor on a 15 or 20 amp breaker, all the lights, power tools etc...  60amp is pushing the limit.
              Last Edit: August 31, 2016, 12:44 PM by TheDarkness

                August 31, 2016, 01:06 PM #7

                Vince Offline

                • Regular Member
                • Posts: 5,366
                • Join Date: Aug 2012
                  Location: Westwood
                • Vehicle: 2012 Si
                • Reputation Power: 174
                • Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!
                Originally posted by TheDarkness
                I wouldn't be moving the service.  The house panel stays where it is.  You run a totally separate feed to the garage only.  It wouldn't tie over to the house.  60amp won't be enough.  A welder on a 50amp breaker, a heater on a 30 amp breaker, compressor on a 15 or 20 amp breaker, all the lights, power tools etc...  60amp is pushing the limit.
                Those are all cyclic/non-continuous loads. Aka they aren't constantly drawing all that load, that's why your stove says it's 12000+ watts, but you can get away with wire that's good for 50A.

                You won't be using all of that at once. You don't straight up add together amperages of loads to find a demand factor.

                It sounded to me like you wanted your 200A panel in your garage, then to feed your house off of it. Apologies..this is what happens when I reply quickly when at work.

                AFAIK you cannot have two services in a residential setting, if you can, it would probably cost a **** ton to have hydro come out and bring a second set of service conductors to it. I'll quote the CEC on this.

                Quote (selected)
                6-102   Number of supply  services permitted  (see Appendix  B) (1) Two  or  more  supply  services  of  the  same  voltage  shall not  be run  to any  building, except that additional supply  services shall be  permitted for supplying (a) fire  pumps  in  accordance  with Rule 32-204(1); (b) (c) (2) industrial establishments and  other complex structures; or completely self-contained occupancies  where the occupancies (i) are not located one  above  the  other; and (ii) have a  separate entrance  with  direct access to  ground level. When two or more supply  services  are installed to a building, all service boxes associated with the various consumer’s services shall be  grouped, where  practicable. (3) When two or more  service boxes installed  in accordance  with Subrule  (2) are  not grouped together, a permanent diagram shall be  posted  on or near  each  service  box indicating the location  of all the  other service boxes  supplying  power  to  the building.


                it uses the word "occupancy" which the CEC defines as "Residential  occupancy  — the  occupancy  or use of a  building or  part of  a building  by  persons for whom sleeping accommodation is provided but who are not harboured or detained to receive medical care or treatment or  are not  involuntarily  detained."

                You can get subpanels larger than 60A obviously, but I doubt you'd need one.

                Do a service calc for your house, including your garage loads (you could probably just do one for your garage) to find your service/subpanel size.

                (∩ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)⊃━☆ ─=≡Σ((( つ◕ل͜◕)つ

                [May 23 00:37:52] Sloppyclock:But Moooooom, I was being a street terrorist

                  September 02, 2016, 08:42 AM #8

                  seanf Offline

                  • Posts: 318
                  • Join Date: May 2012
                    Location: Winnipeg
                  • Real Name: Sean
                  • Vehicle: 4 Audis and a Cavalier
                  • Reputation Power: 15
                  • seanf has no influence.
                  Originally posted by TheDarkness
                  I want a bigger panel in the garage.  60amp is going to be too small.  If I upgrade the house panel to 200amp, I still have to upgrade the garage one.  Then I'm paying twice over for new panels, lines etc. 

                  How much of it do you plan on doing yourself? or are you paying someone to do everything? The smartest thing to do is get a 200a panel on the house and run 100A sub panel to your garage. Have you considered running a gas line to your garage and installing a furnace? That would remove the heating load then you would not have to do any electrical related work.

                    September 02, 2016, 09:08 AM #9

                    Vince Offline

                    • Regular Member
                    • Posts: 5,366
                    • Join Date: Aug 2012
                      Location: Westwood
                    • Vehicle: 2012 Si
                    • Reputation Power: 174
                    • Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!
                    Originally posted by seanf
                    How much of it do you plan on doing yourself? or are you paying someone to do everything? The smartest thing to do is get a 200a panel on the house and run 100A sub panel to your garage. Have you considered running a gas line to your garage and installing a furnace? That would remove the heating load then you would not have to do any electrical related work.
                    overkill, and running a gas line would be incredibly expensive and a lot of work.
                    (∩ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)⊃━☆ ─=≡Σ((( つ◕ل͜◕)つ

                    [May 23 00:37:52] Sloppyclock:But Moooooom, I was being a street terrorist

                      September 02, 2016, 09:27 AM #10

                      IanB Offline

                      • Regular Member
                      • Posts: 1,191
                      • Join Date: Mar 2012
                        Location: Winnipeg
                      • Real Name: Ian
                      • Vehicle: '93 Land Cruiser HDJ81
                      • Reputation Power: 43
                      • IanB might someday be someone...IanB might someday be someone...IanB might someday be someone...IanB might someday be someone...
                      You can have a separate service to the garage, a friend in the city is doing just that as the house is older and would have needed to be completely overhauled and upgraded to feed a subpanel in the garage.  He does have to pay additional fees for the 2nd meter/account, but the payback period compared to redoing the house electrical is generations in the future so it makes sense for him.
                      '93 Land Cruiser HDJ81
                      '04 Lexus GX470

                        September 02, 2016, 10:15 AM #11

                        Vince Offline

                        • Regular Member
                        • Posts: 5,366
                        • Join Date: Aug 2012
                          Location: Westwood
                        • Vehicle: 2012 Si
                        • Reputation Power: 174
                        • Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!
                        A new 200A service JUST for your garage is overkill, bordering on a waste of money.

                        It's more worthwhile to upgrade your house panel (increased your houses value, can add an AC, jacuzzi, w.e you want) and to run a feed to your garage. Even 100A would be stupid overkill, considering wire size (#3 is pricey), and method of install (pipe vs expensive teck).
                        Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 01:02 PM by Vince
                        (∩ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)⊃━☆ ─=≡Σ((( つ◕ل͜◕)つ

                        [May 23 00:37:52] Sloppyclock:But Moooooom, I was being a street terrorist

                          September 02, 2016, 12:43 PM #12

                          TheDarkness Offline

                          • Regular Member
                          • Posts: 218
                          • Join Date: Sep 2012
                            Location: Winnipeg
                          • Real Name: Tyler
                          • Vehicle: 1991 Escort 'GTR', 1992 Familia GTR, 2013 Focus ST
                          • Reputation Power: 8
                          • TheDarkness has no influence.
                          Thanks for the inputs guys.  I see I got Vince fired up about this.  For what it's worth, I talked to my friend who is an electrician in Saskatchewan, and he said 60amp will likely not be enough.  I don't want to leave 60amp in there, and then after insulating and closing up the walls, discover that 60amp is in fact not enough.  I would rather have it overkill to begin with, than t have it undersized and have to tear everything apart.

                            September 02, 2016, 01:01 PM #13

                            Vince Offline

                            • Regular Member
                            • Posts: 5,366
                            • Join Date: Aug 2012
                              Location: Westwood
                            • Vehicle: 2012 Si
                            • Reputation Power: 174
                            • Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!
                            Originally posted by TheDarkness
                            Thanks for the inputs guys.  I see I got Vince fired up about this.  For what it's worth, I talked to my friend who is an electrician in Saskatchewan, and he said 60amp will likely not be enough.  I don't want to leave 60amp in there, and then after insulating and closing up the walls, discover that 60amp is in fact not enough.  I would rather have it overkill to begin with, than t have it undersized and have to tear everything apart.
                            Yea a little bit. :Lol: the idea of the dedicated service is just too dumb imo.

                            You can do 90% of the work yourself btw.. both for a new panel, and a new feed. It's actually pretty easy imo

                            60 could very well not be enough, since I didn't do the math on it I was just going off instinct. I asked my buddy and he said that 60 should be fine. I guess it depends on how safe you want to be.

                            Since its a garage, I'd consider not boxing in the panel, and instead surfacing mounting it so you can add additional circuits if necessary. You would just gave to use BX for mechanical protection.
                            (∩ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)⊃━☆ ─=≡Σ((( つ◕ل͜◕)つ

                            [May 23 00:37:52] Sloppyclock:But Moooooom, I was being a street terrorist

                              September 02, 2016, 03:48 PM #14

                              IanB Offline

                              • Regular Member
                              • Posts: 1,191
                              • Join Date: Mar 2012
                                Location: Winnipeg
                              • Real Name: Ian
                              • Vehicle: '93 Land Cruiser HDJ81
                              • Reputation Power: 43
                              • IanB might someday be someone...IanB might someday be someone...IanB might someday be someone...IanB might someday be someone...
                              220V heater, 220V air compressor, you're likely looking at 60A right there.  100A is lots for anything you'd call a garage, more than that and what you've got is a shop, lol.
                              '93 Land Cruiser HDJ81
                              '04 Lexus GX470

                                September 02, 2016, 04:14 PM #15

                                Vince Offline

                                • Regular Member
                                • Posts: 5,366
                                • Join Date: Aug 2012
                                  Location: Westwood
                                • Vehicle: 2012 Si
                                • Reputation Power: 174
                                • Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!
                                Originally posted by IanB
                                220V heater, 220V air compressor, you're likely looking at 60A right there.  100A is lots for anything you'd call a garage, more than that and what you've got is a shop, lol.
                                >Demand factors and continuous/non-continuous loads.
                                Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 04:22 PM by Vince
                                (∩ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)⊃━☆ ─=≡Σ((( つ◕ل͜◕)つ

                                [May 23 00:37:52] Sloppyclock:But Moooooom, I was being a street terrorist

                                  September 02, 2016, 04:52 PM #16

                                  TheDarkness Offline

                                  • Regular Member
                                  • Posts: 218
                                  • Join Date: Sep 2012
                                    Location: Winnipeg
                                  • Real Name: Tyler
                                  • Vehicle: 1991 Escort 'GTR', 1992 Familia GTR, 2013 Focus ST
                                  • Reputation Power: 8
                                  • TheDarkness has no influence.
                                  I'm looking at all my options.  I had my electrician buddy in Saskatchewan do a service calculation for me based on the shop size, amount of lighting, the welder, the heater etc etc.  Code requirement would actually be a 125 amp panel apparently. A 100amp would work, but it's just slightly under code.

                                    September 02, 2016, 05:52 PM #17

                                    Vince Offline

                                    • Regular Member
                                    • Posts: 5,366
                                    • Join Date: Aug 2012
                                      Location: Westwood
                                    • Vehicle: 2012 Si
                                    • Reputation Power: 174
                                    • Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!Vince is awe-inspiring!
                                    Originally posted by TheDarkness
                                    I'm looking at all my options.  I had my electrician buddy in Saskatchewan do a service calculation for me based on the shop size, amount of lighting, the welder, the heater etc etc.  Code requirement would actually be a 125 amp panel apparently. A 100amp would work, but it's just slightly under code.
                                    What the...

                                    I must be missing some seriously important pieces of data if he came up with 125A.

                                    How big of a heater are you putting in :S
                                    Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 06:02 PM by Vince
                                    (∩ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)⊃━☆ ─=≡Σ((( つ◕ل͜◕)つ

                                    [May 23 00:37:52] Sloppyclock:But Moooooom, I was being a street terrorist

                                      September 02, 2016, 09:25 PM #18

                                      Battle Design Offline

                                      • Regular Member
                                      • Posts: 5
                                      • Join Date: Mar 2016
                                      • Reputation Power: 3
                                      • Battle Design has no influence.
                                      Usage doesn't matter since hydro won't give you a second line on a residential property.

                                      The proper way to do this would be a 200A in the house, feeding a 100A sub panel in the garage. 

                                      For most people a 60A would be more than enough. But with an electric furnace running and a welder, you will probably be over.

                                        September 03, 2016, 01:24 AM #19

                                        DLo Offline

                                        • Posts: 136
                                        • Join Date: Mar 2012
                                          Location: Winnipeg, MB
                                        • Reputation Power: 3
                                        • DLo has no influence.
                                        Jesus Vince, look at you quoting CEC! Colin would be proud. Hydro likely won't give you a separate point of supply. In my opinion you should get split lugs on the secondary of your meter, run a new feed from the meter to your garage, and install a 100 amp sub. 100 amp is plenty for what you listed, you might even get away with the 60 depending on how you use your equipment, but you need to keep future expansion in mind. You'll have to run larger conductors from the meter to hydro's connection point, but it's a lot easier than installing a new panel in the house and running the sub from there.

                                        Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk


                                          Top Tier Imports

                                          New garage electrical panel install question
                                          « Reply #19 on: September 03, 2016, 01:24 AM »