Author Topic: Intermittent Stalling on warm starts.  (Read 1099 times)

May 17, 2017, 04:13 PM #0

jordisonjr Offline

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Hey guys, looking for some advice on an issue that arose on my car. Ill start off by saying its a 95 Celica GTS with a 5sfe. Motor is completely stock aside from a short ram intake, which I've just replaced with the factory air box.

From time to time, when the car is warm, it'll give a tough time starting. Ill start the car up cold and it gives no issues, drive it until its up to temperature, and then turn the car off. I'll let it sit for 10-20 minutes, come back and the car will give difficulty starting.

It'll fire up to about 1000 RPM (regular idle) and then drop right back down to 0. If i give it some throttle I can get it to run if i hold the RPM at idle for 30 seconds or so, and then it runs and drives fine. However if I don't give it throttle it just stalls out again. This problem is also very inconsistent, majority of the time it will start and run fine, but when it does give me problems, its always under these circumstances.

It occurred once this week where i had to give it a significant amount of throttle(1/4 to 1/2) to force it to start, and then held it at idle for 30 seconds or s, and then it idled fine.

I've done some researching on toyota forums, and have a very very rough idea what could be causing this, and I'm hoping someone could provide some insight as to what could cause this. Its a difficult thing to diagnose, as it doesn't happen extremely frequently, but I'm also hesitant to drive it, as I don't want to get stranded somewhere with a vehicle that doesn't start.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Originally posted by Madbuzz41
I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


[Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

[Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

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    Intermittent Stalling on warm starts.
    « on: May 17, 2017, 04:13 PM »

    May 17, 2017, 05:51 PM #1

    Ctown8 Offline

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    Check IACV?
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      May 17, 2017, 09:45 PM #2

      Colby Offline

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      Originally posted by jordisonjr
      Hey guys, looking for some advice on an issue that arose on my car. Ill start off by saying its a 95 Celica GTS with a 5sfe. Motor is completely stock aside from a short ram intake, which I've just replaced with the factory air box.

      From time to time, when the car is warm, it'll give a tough time starting. Ill start the car up cold and it gives no issues, drive it until its up to temperature, and then turn the car off. I'll let it sit for 10-20 minutes, come back and the car will give difficulty starting.

      It'll fire up to about 1000 RPM (regular idle) and then drop right back down to 0. If i give it some throttle I can get it to run if i hold the RPM at idle for 30 seconds or so, and then it runs and drives fine. However if I don't give it throttle it just stalls out again. This problem is also very inconsistent, majority of the time it will start and run fine, but when it does give me problems, its always under these circumstances.

      It occurred once this week where i had to give it a significant amount of throttle(1/4 to 1/2) to force it to start, and then held it at idle for 30 seconds or s, and then it idled fine.

      I've done some researching on toyota forums, and have a very very rough idea what could be causing this, and I'm hoping someone could provide some insight as to what could cause this. Its a difficult thing to diagnose, as it doesn't happen extremely frequently, but I'm also hesitant to drive it, as I don't want to get stranded somewhere with a vehicle that doesn't start.

      Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

      Shot in the dark with some basic thoughts.

      Spark Plugs? how old are they?

      Fuel Filter(s)? Fuel Pressure? Fuel Pump?

      Throttle Body, Butterfly valve??? Perhaps gunky from PCV?

      Have you done anything for cleaning, Seafoam, Injector Cleaner? Perhaps a plugged injector?
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        May 18, 2017, 10:06 AM #3

        jordisonjr Offline

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        Originally posted by Ctown8
        Check IACV?
        This is one of the things that continually pops up in what i've read. Seems like it could be the culprit, but I'm not really sure how to check this. And would like ot know forsure before throwing parts at it. Any idea ?
        Originally posted by Colby
        Shot in the dark with some basic thoughts.

        Spark Plugs? how old are they?

        Fuel Filter(s)? Fuel Pressure? Fuel Pump?

        Throttle Body, Butterfly valve??? Perhaps gunky from PCV?

        Have you done anything for cleaning, Seafoam, Injector Cleaner? Perhaps a plugged injector?
        Spark plugs aren't too old. They were fairly white when I checked them, however I'm not very good at reading spark plugs, even after comparing to what I found online. I can provide pictures of this if needed.

        Fuel filter has never been changed in my ownership (8 or so years). Fuel pressure and pump have not been checked, due to lack of knowledge :lol:
        Throttle body doesn't look too dirty, nor does the butterfly valve. Seems to operate smoothly, and doesn't look too gummed up or anything.

        I haven't done anything for cleaning yet, I'm really just trying to narrow it down slightly first. I was thinking it could be dirty injector/fuel related, as it seems weird that after forcing some throttle on it it will run fine. Similar to a dirty carb/fouled plugs on a dirt bike.

        Thanks for the input guys!
        Originally posted by Madbuzz41
        I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


        [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

        [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

          May 18, 2017, 10:18 AM #4

          Ctown8 Offline

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          Im not sure how your iacv is set up but mine was as easy as taking off the throttle body then the iac comes off the body and i was able to clean it out with throttle body cleaner and a toothbrush, helped with the high idle in the morning, sometimes when cold it revs higher than its supposed to (2500 instead of 1500 to 1750).

          I dont beleive the fuel filter is ever supposed to be serviced on celicas but I know it could help in some ways.
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            May 18, 2017, 10:21 AM #5

            jordisonjr Offline

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            Originally posted by Ctown8
            Im not sure how your iacv is set up but mine was as easy as taking off the throttle body then the iac comes off the body and i was able to clean it out with throttle body cleaner and a toothbrush, helped with the high idle in the morning, sometimes when cold it revs higher than its supposed to (2500 instead of 1500 to 1750).

            I dont beleive the fuel filter is ever supposed to be serviced on celicas but I know it could help in some ways.
            I've heard the fuel filter replacement seems to be quite the nightmare on the 6th gen.

            http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/103-camry-3rd-4th-gen-1992-1996-1997-2001-1st-gen-solara-1999-2003/356544-diy-removal-cleaning-iac.html
            This is where my IACV is located on my car as well. Its slightly different, but not much. Seems that the brass screws are likely to strip. I'd like to check the resistance here before cleaning/replacing.
            Originally posted by Madbuzz41
            I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


            [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

            [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

              May 18, 2017, 10:43 AM #6

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              Go nice and slow with the proper sized screwdriver and you should be fine.
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                May 18, 2017, 10:53 AM #7

                Ctown8 Offline

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                Looks very similar to mine, i used an impact to take out the brass screws and had no issues. Checking the resistance is a good starting point, but it doesn't tell you if its dirty.
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                  May 18, 2017, 03:01 PM #8

                  Riley Offline

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                  I recommend killing it with fire.
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                    May 18, 2017, 03:20 PM #9

                    jordisonjr Offline

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                    Originally posted by Riley
                    I recommend killing it with fire.
                    Believe me, I've considered it
                    Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                    I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


                    [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

                    [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

                      May 19, 2017, 08:20 AM #10

                      jordisonjr Offline

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                      Borrowed a multi meter last night from a  buddy. Will report back with what I find.
                      Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                      I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


                      [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

                      [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

                        May 19, 2017, 09:04 AM #11

                        Ctown8 Offline

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                        Originally posted by jordisonjr
                        Borrowed a multi meter last night from a  buddy. Will report back with what I find.
                        You dont own your own?
                        BAASSSSSSS
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                        Dont mod your cars kids. its not worth it.

                          May 19, 2017, 09:47 AM #12

                          jordisonjr Offline

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                          Originally posted by Ctown8
                          You dont own your own?
                          I do not.
                          Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                          I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


                          [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

                          [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

                            May 19, 2017, 09:48 AM #13

                            Ctown8 Offline

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                            Originally posted by jordisonjr
                            I do not.
                            (Shakes head in 12v car guy)
                            BAASSSSSSS
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                              May 19, 2017, 09:58 AM #14

                              jordisonjr Offline

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                              Originally posted by Ctown8
                              (Shakes head in 12v car guy)
                              I've never really needed one to be honest, until now.
                              Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                              I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


                              [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

                              [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

                                May 19, 2017, 05:13 PM #15

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                                  May 20, 2017, 09:56 AM #16

                                  Joe Offline

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                                  A meter is a must in the tool box. Even the cheap mastercrap ones on for 15$ on sale are decent enough.
                                  The one thing no one mentioned is coolamt temp sensor. I had one that wasn't registering the right value mid range and cause odd symptoms. Do you notice your gauge reading correctly, as sometimes there are two sensors.
                                  .
                                  The idle air valve is probably where I'd start and just use seafoam and a brush to clean it. You may be fine just to spray seafoam in the throttle body at idle just to loosen crap up.  It'll smoke a bit but it'll clean up passages   

                                  Otherwise I'd check resistance on the pump. A tired pump will push less fuel when warm.
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                                    May 20, 2017, 09:57 AM #17

                                    Ctown8 Offline

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                                    Haha I have iacv isseus now too. Idle is stuck at 2k, I think its seized. New one is $230!
                                    BAASSSSSSS
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                                    Dont mod your cars kids. its not worth it.

                                      May 20, 2017, 10:40 AM #18

                                      jordisonjr Offline

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                                      Originally posted by Joe
                                      A meter is a must in the tool box. Even the cheap mastercrap ones on for 15$ on sale are decent enough.
                                      The one thing no one mentioned is coolamt temp sensor. I had one that wasn't registering the right value mid range and cause odd symptoms. Do you notice your gauge reading correctly, as sometimes there are two sensors.
                                      .
                                      The idle air valve is probably where I'd start and just use seafoam and a brush to clean it. You may be fine just to spray seafoam in the throttle body at idle just to loosen crap up.  It'll smoke a bit but it'll clean up passages   

                                      Otherwise I'd check resistance on the pump. A tired pump will push less fuel when warm.
                                      Ive actually had members of the other forum mention the coolant temp sensor,  iacv and coolant temp seems to be the most common responses, and a good place to start. I haven't noticed any issues with the coolant temp showing inaccurate readings.

                                      The IACV on the 5sfe is just before the butterfly valve, would it be helpful to give the IACV a spray before starting, just to ensure its coated with sea foam? Or just idle the car with the air intake hose off,  and spray it directly at the IACV?

                                      Are you referring to the fuel pump?
                                      Originally posted by Ctown8
                                      Haha I have iacv isseus now too. Idle is stuck at 2k, I think its seized. New one is $230!
                                      Ooooof that's a spency sensor.
                                      Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                                      I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


                                      [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

                                      [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

                                        May 20, 2017, 03:57 PM #19

                                        jordisonjr Offline

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                                        Sharing this post from another forum. "Box" and "Batman" are members from there:

                                        So I did a little bit of poking under the hood today, and this is what I've found:

                                        Pulled off the cap and rotor, found that there was a bit of oil at the bottom of the cap. It seems that where the distributor assembly mounts on the motor is where the leak is. There's a few hoses as well as a harness directly below the dizzy with significant amounts of old, built up oil, and it seems to be a little cleaner near the dizzy mount. Its hard to get an eye in there, so i was mostly checking the condition of the oil by feel. See photos:

                                        Bottom of cap:


                                        And here's the hose/line below the dizzy, the harness/wiring is farther below that. I don't think this would be the source of the leak, as this looks to a be a coolant/water line to me. If you look just above that, the dizzy mounting bolt is wet with oil.


                                        I don't think this oil could cause the problem, as its not interfering with the electrical connections, however its concerning. Would this simply need a gasket/o ring to be replaced? Or would this require entire dizzy replacement?

                                        This next photo is the inside of the cap. Looks like there's a slight bit of corrosion on the contacts. I'm not sure if this is something that can be cleaned, or if that would require replacing. Or if thats even how it should look, its been a while since i've seen a fresh cap.


                                        Rotor:


                                        Dizzy with dust cap removed:



                                        While I was in there I checked the resistance of the Ignition Coil, based on the link Box provided, and everything seemed to be in spec. The next time this issue arises i'd also like to check by removing a plug and checking for spark, however being intermittent, I need to wait for it to come up again.

                                        I also checked the Resistance of the IACV, and that also seemed to be withing spec (19 - 23 ohms, based on this link: http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/103-camry-3rd-4th-gen-1992-1996-1997-2001-1st-gen-solara-1999-2003/356544-diy-removal-cleaning-iac.html which is a great article on how to remove and clean the IACV). So that can rule out a damaged/malfunctioning IACV I would think.

                                        I also checked the Igniter wiring for cracks, and there was no signs. All of the wires seemed intact. I tried to trace this back to where it would ground as Batman mentioned, however it leads back the main harness, at which point I lose it. Is there a way to test this with a multimeter?

                                        Next was checking the resistance of the coolant temp sensor, however, when I went to do this, my sensors were slightly different than the image box posted:



                                        Based on the image posted by Box, I would assume the sensor on the right side (Lighter grey) would be the coolant temp sensor, but this sensor only had one wire leading to it, and one terminal on the inside of the plug which I found odd. So I wasn't sure if this was the correct sensor, or how to go about checking its resistance. I couldn't really do much else with this.


                                        After this was all done, I drove to the parts store, and picked up some injector cleaner (long shot) as well as some Seafoam deep creep to clean out the IACV while its still on the car. I thought this would be worth a shot. I drove it there, and the car was at operating temp, came out and it stated up fine, drove to the gas station filled up, and it started fine once again and then I drove home. I feel like this issue is going to be a pain to resolve due to being so inconsistent.

                                        I sprayed down the IACV and also ran fuel injector cleaner in the gas, but I'm not convinced this will resolve anything. I've also removed the short ram intake, and put the stock air box back it, but I doubt this will have any affect on it either.

                                        As this is an intermittent issue, Ill try and keep this thread update as frequently as possible, but it may go some time without posts, depending when the issue arises.
                                        Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                                        I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


                                        [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

                                        [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

                                          May 21, 2017, 11:19 AM #20

                                          Joe Offline

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                                          http://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-to-test-a-coolant-temperature-sensor

                                          The distributor may leak from the shaft seal like the 4afe is commonly known to do.
                                          I'd use a non residue cleaner to clean the cap and sandpaper/emery cloth to scuff the contacts. If there are chunks missing from the rotor arm or the contacts on the cap, I'd replace. Rockauto is dirt cheap for that stuff with wholesaler clearance.
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                                            May 23, 2017, 08:33 AM #21

                                            jordisonjr Offline

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                                            Originally posted by Joe
                                            http://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-to-test-a-coolant-temperature-sensor

                                            The distributor may leak from the shaft seal like the 4afe is commonly known to do.
                                            I'd use a non residue cleaner to clean the cap and sandpaper/emery cloth to scuff the contacts. If there are chunks missing from the rotor arm or the contacts on the cap, I'd replace. Rockauto is dirt cheap for that stuff with wholesaler clearance.
                                            Thanks for this! I did check the sensor on the left with 2 wires (members on 6gc later confirmed this was the Coolant Temp Sensor). For some reason I couldn't really get an accurate reading. The numbers jumped all over the place. Not sure if the meter wasn't making a proper connection on the sensor, or maybe this is a sign it needs to be replaced?
                                            Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                                            I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


                                            [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

                                            [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

                                              May 23, 2017, 08:04 PM #22

                                              Joe Offline

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                                              Originally posted by jordisonjr
                                              Thanks for this! I did check the sensor on the left with 2 wires (members on 6gc later confirmed this was the Coolant Temp Sensor). For some reason I couldn't really get an accurate reading. The numbers jumped all over the place. Not sure if the meter wasn't making a proper connection on the sensor, or maybe this is a sign it needs to be replaced?
                                              Could be all over the place due to a bad connection during testing or a bad sensor. Usually those sensors fail open or closed (stuck at one resistance value)
                                              The two wire one probably has a 5v reference through it being fed back to the ecu to determine temperature. 
                                              If I find a toyota electrical manual today I'll post up factory values.
                                              D Street #50 - Slicktop E46 323i
                                              04' Spyder 1E7 w/LSD - SOLD
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                                                May 24, 2017, 08:31 AM #23

                                                jordisonjr Offline

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                                                Originally posted by Joe
                                                Could be all over the place due to a bad connection during testing or a bad sensor. Usually those sensors fail open or closed (stuck at one resistance value)
                                                The two wire one probably has a 5v reference through it being fed back to the ecu to determine temperature. 
                                                If I find a toyota electrical manual today I'll post up factory values.


                                                This is what I was told in another forum:


                                                [quote name='Box' date='May 18, 2017 - 4:10 PM' post='1090317']
                                                K here's a graph for the temp sensor I found:


                                                Also apparently on earlier 5S the ignition coil is on the side of the distributor, found a PDF out of the service manual:
                                                http://bgbonline.celicatech.com/93celica/i...pection5sfe.pdf

                                                Then for the MAP:
                                                0.3 to 0.5 voltage drop @ 3.9 in-Hg
                                                0.7 to 0.9 voltage drop @ 7.8 in-Hg
                                                1.1 to 1.3 voltage drop @ 11.8 in-Hg
                                                1.5 to 1.7 voltage drop @ 15.75 in-Hg
                                                1.9 to 2.1 voltage drop @ 19.7 in-Hg

                                                Measure voltage with ignition on but the car off to get you baseline reference voltage.
                                                [/quote]
                                                Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                                                I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


                                                [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

                                                [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

                                                  June 06, 2017, 08:50 AM #24

                                                  jordisonjr Offline

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                                                  Tried to clean the IACV last night. Managed to get the throttle body off the car (damn that was a pain), and it was pretty dirty on the inside and around the butterfly valve so I cleaned that up as best I could.



                                                  I could not for the life of me get these screw out. First one stripped fairly quickly, and the second was starting to as well. It seems toyotas used some pretty soft screws here.

                                                  I had at it with just a screw driver, and no luck. I soaked it with PB blaster last night, and this morning as well. Going to hopefully try it again with either a screw driver or Phillips head in a socket and hope one of those will get the job done. Otherwise, i ma yhave to take it somewhere to have these screws removed, and then find replacements.
                                                  Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                                                  I'm not a fan of blowing for a long time anyways ; )


                                                  [Mar 31 23:03:18] Basil:Dan go outside without your pants and let your beef curtains flap around in the wind like a windsock

                                                  [Dec 11 14:00:38] alexatwork21:I

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                                                    Intermittent Stalling on warm starts.
                                                    « Reply #24 on: June 06, 2017, 08:50 AM »