Author Topic: 2015 Autocross Thread  (Read 53182 times)

January 08, 2015, 10:27 PM #25

Igor Online

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Originally posted by Madbuzz41
Can I drive really slow down the gravel road? :O I don't want to ruin the paint on her. Otherwise I'm in!


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speed limit is 10km/h on that road. drive as slow as you want.
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    2015 Autocross Thread
    « Reply #25 on: January 08, 2015, 10:27 PM »

    January 08, 2015, 10:49 PM #26

    Nirusan Offline

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    Originally posted by Madbuzz41
    Can I drive really slow down the gravel road? :O I don't want to ruin the paint on her. Otherwise I'm in!


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    I don't think you can race your Fiat-500 Sport due to it's short wheel base. I THINK that you would be allowed to race it if you were to do some suspension modifications, but don't quote me on that.

    I'm sure someone with more knowledge on the subject will chime in soon™.
    Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 10:51 PM by Nirusan
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      January 08, 2015, 10:52 PM #27

      Madbuzz41 Offline

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      Originally posted by Nirusan
      I don't think you can race your Fiat-500 Sport due to it's short wheel base. I THINK that you would be able to race it if some suspension modifications were made, but don't quote me on that.

      I'm sure someone with more knowledge on the subject will chime in soon.

      What's the problem with the short wheel base? They're afraid of it tipping over?


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        January 08, 2015, 11:03 PM #28

        Igor Online

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        Originally posted by Madbuzz41
        What's the problem with the short wheel base? They're afraid of it tipping over?


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        Correct. It has the potential to tip over. Only the abarth version car race unless you modify your current one. Lowering the car and widening the wheelbase will do it. Take a look at the rules in the scca rule book. There is a section that covers this.
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          January 08, 2015, 11:13 PM #29

          Madbuzz41 Offline

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          Originally posted by Igor
          Correct. It has the potential to tip over. Only the abarth version car race unless you modify your current one. Lowering the car and widening the wheelbase will do it. Take a look at the rules in the scca rule book. There is a section that covers this.

          Mine and the abarth have the same height but according to the scca rule book I would have to lower my car almost 7 inches for it to be safe to not roll over, but it's pretty low already... But if an abarth can race I don't see why my sport can't. Maybe someone can look into it more for me? I know my car handles really well and stays planted throughout corners.


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            January 08, 2015, 11:32 PM #30

            Nouri Offline

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            Originally posted by Madbuzz41
            Mine and the abarth have the same height but according to the scca rule book I would have to lower my car almost 7 inches for it to be safe to not roll over, but it's pretty low already... But if an abarth can race I don't see why my sport can't. Maybe someone can look into it more for me? I know my car handles really well and stays planted throughout corners.


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            Based on the numbers I found online, the car is 59.8" high and has an average track width of 55.2". You need to bring those numbers closer together. So it needs to be lowered, spacers, and lower offset wheels probably.

            The Abarth has different suspension from what I understand. The SCCA decided to give the Abarth an exemption from that rule I guess. They do these on case by case basis.

            BUT if you are seriously considering autocrossing it, please post in the WSCC autocross forum and ask their about your eligibility. That way an official discussion can take place regarding your situation and you'll get a more definitive answer.
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            [Jan 02 18:18:37] Nouri:I think it would have to be really pouring with puddles everywhere to really make a difference

              January 09, 2015, 11:53 AM #31

              boostfreak Offline

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              All models of the 500 have the same track width and wheelbase. However as posted, the Abarth has different springs (among other things) and is over an inch lower than the standard model. The Abarth also has a rear sway bar as factory equipment, which does wonders for cornering prowess as we all know.

              We are in the same boat. The Turbo shares suspension components with the Sport. In order to be allowed to compete you need to lower your car, simple as that. Find some used Abarth components online, they're always cheap.
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              Originally posted by: Igor
              i don't know why you would want to say its an sti, especially around people that know what they are looking at. like buddy, its a wrx, who cares. personally i find it insulting that he calls it an sti

                January 09, 2015, 02:40 PM #32

                Nouri Offline

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                Again, I would advise to post in WSCC forums before doing any changes to the car and expecting to be allowed to compete based on those changes. The SCCA provides a guideline of allowed cars. The Fiat 500 Abarth does not conform to the guideline as it's still taller than it is wide. The SCCA probably decided to not strictly follow their height/average track guideline with the Abarth. Swapping all the suspension components from an Abarth to a Turbo does not make the car an Abarth. For the Turbo to comply to the guideline by just lowering, it would need to be lowered by more than 4"  :hurr:

                Logically speaking if you swap out all the suspension components from an Abarth, the Turbo will have pretty much the sane roll-over characteristics of the Abarth thus it should be allowed to compete. But that's still up to the discretion of WSCC autocross officials. This needs to be handled on a case by case basis.
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                [Jan 02 18:18:37] Nouri:I think it would have to be really pouring with puddles everywhere to really make a difference

                  January 09, 2015, 03:09 PM #33

                  boostfreak Offline

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                  I should have said that I do agree, a post there would be in your best interest.

                  BNRJAMZ
                  '13 Fiat 500 Turbo
                  Originally posted by: Igor
                  i don't know why you would want to say its an sti, especially around people that know what they are looking at. like buddy, its a wrx, who cares. personally i find it insulting that he calls it an sti

                    January 09, 2015, 09:03 PM #34

                    Magner Offline

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                    Unofficial response, (I have no authority to make a call on this)

                    Wheelbase is not the issue here, it's the high center of gravity due to the narrow track width relative to the overall height. In the name of safety sometimes these types of rulings lie on the side of caution.

                    From Edmunds.com it appear the Fiat measures:
                    Height 59.8 in
                    Front Track Width: 55.4 in
                    Rear Track Width: 55 in
                    Average track width (55.2 in)

                    2015 Rulebook you will need here: http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/assets/2015-1-8_SCCA_Solo_Rules_book_online1.pdf

                    Here's an excerpt from Page 163, these vehicles are excluded from competing in stock class:

                    Excluded from Street Category for Reasons of Stability per Section 3.1:

                    Dodge Caliber (non-SRT)
                    Fiat 500 (non-Abarth)
                    Ford Fiesta (non-ST) (2011-15)
                    GEO Tracker & Suzuki Sidekick
                    Jeep CJ series
                    MINI Countryman
                    Nissan Juke
                    Suzuki Samurai
                    Scion xB (2004-06)
                    Scion iQ


                    It order to race ANY Fiat 500 (Non-Abarth) you will need to comply with Section 3.1 on page 33. As per the table listed on page 34 the track width must be equal to or wider than the overall height of the vehicles. As competitor it would be your responsibility to modify your car and prove it can meet the minimum requirements before being allowed to compete. I hate to say but even if you bolt on all the Abarth parts and it still doesn't meet the requirements listed in the rulebook the car would still not be allowed to race.

                    Rollovers can happen... here's a Fiesta ST (currently Legal as is) on 2 wheels almost flipping. BTW this was on regular street tires not fancy racing R-Comps or Slicks which would only increase the risk.


                      January 09, 2015, 09:13 PM #35

                      themikewoo Offline

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                      January 10, 2015, 09:58 AM #36

                      Ænimal Offline

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                      Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                      What's the problem with the short wheel base? They're afraid of it tipping over?

                      I would go for ridealongs, and maybe take a different car out to see if you like it. If you want to stick with a fiat 500, AND find autocross fun (and something you're interested in spending your car monies on) then look at a just selling and buying an abarth. Both cars would've taken a resale hit, and the MSRP difference is not that much (~$3500 CAD). For that you get: rear sway, different springs, limited slip diff, koni shocks all around, some sort of SS exhuast, better intercooler, ~25 more hp (with warranty), and bolstered seats. If you're serious about performance, you would be hard pressed to find at that sort of price point....and the car definitely wouldn't have warranty intact.

                      Probably not the advice you want to hear, but probably something to think about...!
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                        January 10, 2015, 10:21 AM #37

                        Madbuzz41 Offline

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                        Originally posted by Ænimal
                        I would go for ridealongs, and maybe take a different car out to see if you like it. If you want to stick with a fiat 500, AND find autocross fun (and something you're interested in spending your car monies on) then look at a just selling and buying an abarth. Both cars would've taken a resale hit, and the MSRP difference is not that much (~$3500 CAD). For that you get: rear sway, different springs, limited slip diff, koni shocks all around, some sort of SS exhuast, better intercooler, ~25 more hp (with warranty), and bolstered seats. If you're serious about performance, you would be hard pressed to find at that sort of price point....and the car definitely wouldn't have warranty intact.

                        Probably not the advice you want to hear, but probably something to think about...!

                        I'm down for just ride alongs if anyone's interested! I do plan on doing lots of modifications to the car over the span of me owning it, coil overs, turbo, everything that can be improved I plan on doing eventually. But till then I would enjoy ride alongs. Selling it for an abarth isn't a bad option at all and was considered, but the sentimental value of me buying that fiat at 16 will always stay with me as I plan on always keeping her as my summer car.


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                          January 10, 2015, 10:25 AM #38

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                          BNRJAMZ
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                          Originally posted by: Igor
                          i don't know why you would want to say its an sti, especially around people that know what they are looking at. like buddy, its a wrx, who cares. personally i find it insulting that he calls it an sti

                            January 10, 2015, 10:59 PM #39

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                            ST of the Focus variety 2 wheeling... on Hoosiers though.



                            @Nirusan :hurr:
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                            [Jan 02 18:18:37] Nouri:I think it would have to be really pouring with puddles everywhere to really make a difference

                              January 10, 2015, 11:33 PM #40

                              Nirusan Offline

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                              Originally posted by Nouri
                              ST of the Focus variety 2 wheeling... on Hoosiers though.
                              @Nirusan :hurr:

                              Yikes. Safe to say I'm too slow for this to happen to me :hurr:.

                              Going to be running ZII*'s this upcoming season, which are obviously not as grippy as the Hoosier A6's that the guy in the video is running. I seriously hope that I never experience this.
                              Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 11:38 PM by Nirusan
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                                January 10, 2015, 11:35 PM #41

                                Madbuzz41 Offline

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                                Originally posted by Nouri
                                ST of the Focus variety 2 wheeling... on Hoosiers though.



                                @Nirusan :hurr:

                                I'm wondering why they even allow compact cars at all like that extremely dangerous. I'm still down to ride with someone if they want a buddy!! I'm a lot of fun. I can bring snacks.


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                                  January 10, 2015, 11:56 PM #42

                                  Nouri Offline

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                                  Originally posted by Madbuzz41
                                  I'm wondering why they even allow compact cars at all like that extremely dangerous. I'm still down to ride with someone if they want a buddy!! I'm a lot of fun. I can bring snacks.


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                                  It's not that common. There are probably many factors that worked together in those two specific instances that made those cars prone to a roll over. A car 2 wheeling is not something that's seen regulary at an autocross event. The point is that it CAN happen.
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                                  [Jan 02 18:18:37] Nouri:I think it would have to be really pouring with puddles everywhere to really make a difference

                                    January 11, 2015, 03:17 AM #43

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                                    I've two wheeled at autox with R's...LOL
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                                      January 11, 2015, 05:36 PM #44

                                      TonyPajamaz Offline

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                                      Originally posted by Nouri
                                      and hello mr. hydroplane jesus in the rain.

                                      I know this feel, almost took out a line of cars leaving the red river ex on the way home from an event last year.
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                                        January 11, 2015, 05:43 PM #45

                                        fruitloops Offline

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                                        Soooooo, what tires should I get next year. Interested in the zII reviews
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                                          January 11, 2015, 05:58 PM #46

                                          Igor Online

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                                          Originally posted by TonyPajamaz
                                          I know this feel, almost took out a line of cars leaving the red river ex on the way home from an event last year.

                                          Hmmm maybe i should get direzzas instead :p
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                                            January 12, 2015, 10:49 AM #47

                                            Coach Offline

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                                            Personally I try to pick a tire based on our overall average weather and temp for an entire autocross season, also being used as a daily drive is very important.  That being said, the Rivals are the best tire for me.  I know the Rivals are somewhat numb compared to the ZII's, but the Rivals are very forgiving and have excellent grip in hot and cold weather.  I have found the grip to be pretty good in the rain.  All tires will have less grip in the rain as expected.

                                            I also think driver ability has a lot to do with tire choice.  Joe is a great driver and has the ability to recognize the slight differences in tires, where I do not :).  When I get another summer car I will make the Corolla my dedicated autocross car, then I will try the ZII's.
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                                              January 12, 2015, 12:40 PM #48

                                              Igor Online

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                                              I daily drove my z1 star specs for 4 years. Loved the ride. Last summer on them was sketchy as they were at the wear bars haha. Rear end wanting to step out often on the street regardless of speed.

                                              All this talk about tires is making me want to get a better set :( The stock dunlops leave much to be desired. hopefully i'll be on different rubber come spring.
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                                                January 12, 2015, 12:53 PM #49

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                                                  2015 Autocross Thread
                                                  « Reply #49 on: January 12, 2015, 12:53 PM »